Jump to navigation
"Our Guy", "Their Guy", and the No-Win Scenario
Mike Ahlf
RAW touches on an interesting
phenomenon with regard to Presidential elections: how much support a candidate can expect merely for partisan affiliation, and how much slack a candidate can get for disagreement with his base.
Interestingly for me, this set off a tangent thought regarding "Partisan Affiliation." Long ago, in his final words to the nation, George Washington warned the nation to avoid entangling alliances (oops!) and strongly suggested that political parties not be allowed.
The theory behind this is that political parties short-circuit the idea behind the checks and balances in the constitution; it's not very useful to have a congress, president, and courts able to overrule each other if they're both members of the same political party.
Regrettably, we have political parties, so one of my major factors in trying to choose a Presidential candidate is simple: try to preserve the balance of power. If the Democrats control Congress (or at least one branch of it), I'm more likely to vote Republican for President. If the Republicans control the House, I'm more likely to vote Democrat.
And yet, in 2000 and again in 2004, I didn't vote for the Democrat. Why? Because despite it being "their election to lose" for me - all other factors being equal, they would have won my vote by default - they put forth a candidate that I couldn't possibly support. Each of them had policies I couldn't support, a record I couldn't get behind, and a platform the was formed mostly of the various
shibboleths by which any candidate must pass through to get the Democrat nomination - kiss Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton's ass, proclaim that global warming is the antichrist, be pro-choice or else be booed off the floor, etc.
In 2006, the situation was so odious I just
skipped it.
In 2008, compared to 2000 and 2004, the situation will be reversed. Since the Democrats have the House and Senate (barring something weird, like some of their aging/embalmed jokes like Kennedy suffering a heart attack or not escaping a murder charge), the election is then - by the balance of power vote - the Republicans' to lose. By default, I should vote Republican.
As of yet, however, the candidates being put forth from both parties are completely disinteresting. Both Barack
Hussein Obama and Hillary Clinton appear to be peaking early, and I suspect the more people know about
who Obama actually is, the more they will wonder whether he's to be trusted. Race-baiting and gender-baiting can only take you so far.
On the flip side, for the Republicans, the field is terribly thin. John McCain spent himself last election, and his behavior since may have terminally killed his chances with his base. Guiliani has great name recognition, but as policies go, he could probably run with either a D or an R next to his name and nobody'd know the difference, which isn't a good way to get the nomination.
On the lower part of the ladder, there's Thompson (the arguments against which RAW summarized pretty well). There's
Ron Paul, who bills himself as the "taxpayer's friend" but whose voting record says pretty consistently otherwise, and whose other statements (border, national security) are directly contradicted by his voting record as well.
I don't know what's scarier; the idea that the Republicans, given a great shot like this, might manage to lose this one when it's theirs to win, or that somehow, the Democrats might manage to go 3-for-3 and lose it right back.
And if both of them lose it (as concerns my vote), who do I give my vote to?
buy cheap softwarecheap softwareoem softwarecheap adobe acrobat
 
Observations
 
I think you are confused about Ron Paul's voting record. It couldn't be more consistent. He has never voted to raise taxes. He has never once contradicted himself with a vote. He is the only candidate who has the voting record to back up every single word he says. Please correct your inaccurate comments about Ron Paul. For more information on Ron Paul's voting record -
http://www.vote-smart.org/v...
 
Given that you're the one who is inaccurate, and given that I've already seen his voting record as compared to his statements, I'd appreciate if you wouldn't lie, "Erin."
Oh, and copy/pasting in boilerplate statements is pretty lousy, too.
 
Complaining about partisanship is like complaining about the rain. I'm against blind-partisanship and am more than willing to vote against my party when the circumstances warrant (I voted for Bell, for instance, and haven't voted for a Republican House candidate since 1996), but people forming groups by swapping issues that matter to them for issues that don't matter as much) to them are inevitable.
Elections are about making the choice between compromises. Your ideal guy is the ideal guy for very, very few people. Same with mine. I wish everybody agreed with me, but they don't. So we all kind of get together and rally around the guy that's the least unacceptable to us. It's not a great system, but I don't know of any better (queue Churchill quote here).
A few thoughts on the individual candidates:
* I personally consider the mention (and bolding!) of Obama's middle name to be something of a cheap shot. I hope that the Republicans don't try that (or worse yet, "Obama bin Laden") if he gets the nomination.
* I would like to hear how Paul's voting record on taxes belies his claim to being the taxpayers friend. The guy votes against pork for his own district. I can understand your other objections, but he's the economic libertarian's dream candidate.
* McCain's basekilling behavior more-or-less ended after 2002. It just turns out that the base has a longer member than he'd thought.
* You mention that Giuliani is going to have trouble getting the nomination (a position with which I agree, polls notwithstanding), but you didn't really mention any objections to him otherwise. If he's the kind of guy you could support, you should at least vote in the primary and take your stand there.
 
RAW,
As fits Guiliani, I don't really see myself voting for him precisely because he's the kind of guy that could have a R or a D in his name and nobody'd really notice the difference. One too many positions of his that I disagree with. In New Yawk, he might be "conservative" for the area, but he's still pretty unpalatable when I look at what little of his platform exists so far.
McCain's base-killing behavior's been returning recently, which I don't find a hopeful sign. He's at odds with a good amount of things - the statement, I believe, is "George Bush has turned into the guy we were afraid McCain would be." As for people having a long memory... shouldn't they? I'd prefer the voting public to have a longer memory, that way it'd be harder away to gloss over previous behavior with a media blitz.
As for Ron Paul, while he votes "anti" to a lot of taxes, he also votes "anti" to a lot of needed programs, and his voting record when it comes to unfunded mandates - for which the local taxpayers foot the bill - is pretty lousy.
As far as Obama's concerned, between things I've been finding out about his background I'm not too happy with (his church and some nasty statements in his first book), the fact that his early life was lived outside the nation even while he was technically a citizen, and some pretty serious questions about his upbringing that aren't satisfactorily answered, not to mention political positions I just don't like, there's not much hope for getting me to vote for him.
Plus, I get the feeling the whole "if you don't vote for Obama/Hillary you're a racist/sexist" kick is going to get stale, and if his/her campaign even looks like they're doing that post-nomination they will automatically lose any slim chance at my vote he/she might have had.
 
One of the interesting things about being a web guy is that you get a feel for things.
For instance, the IP address for our friend "Erin" above maps to a Verizon network IP address pool that serves wi-fi devices (laptop network cards, portables with browsers, blackberries, that sort of thing).
"Erin" is likely actually a Ron Paul staffer. It's too bad "Erin" didn't just come out and say this, or even leave some contact info in order for those of us who live around Ron Paul's area to discuss the issues with Ron Paul's voting record.
Disingenuous? You betcha. Typical politician behavior. Ron Paul just lost any respect I might have had for him based on his staffer "Erin"'s behavior.
 
McCain - He's been toeing the line for quite some time now. And I agree that it's not a bad thing that voters have long memories, I was just disagreeing with your characterization that since 2000 he's been alienating conservatives.
Paul - What unfunded mandates does he support? The guy votes against nearly every appropriation. The only exception as far as appropriations bills go are military, post-9/11 relief, and a bill on the PBS that reduced funding in a lot of areas. I understand that he also votes against things you think are a good idea, but under what circumstances can that be considered "lousy"? I'm not saying that you should vote for the guy, but if you're going to say that he hasn't walked the walk on government spending (ie not "the taxpayer's friend"), you're going to have to get a little more specific insofar as what the heck you're talking about.
Giuliani - I still find your take on him to be odd. You appear to be complaining that he's insufficiently partisan in a post decrying partisanship.
Obama - I'm not voting for Obama, either, I just think that it's in extremely poor taste to emphasize his middle name and I hope the GOP overcomes the temptation to do so if he gets the nomination.
 
Re: Giuliani, I'm not complaining he's insufficiently partisan, but what I see is that a lot of people appear to think he has positions that he either doesn't have, or directly contradicted in the past.
That says a lot to me about him; the last thing I think we need is (yet another) politician elected because people thought he was something other than he is.
Regarding Ron Paul, here's a few votes I think put the lie to his "taxpayer's friend" biz:
voted NO on the pay-as-you-go bill
voted NO on the death/estate tax bill of '06
voted NO on the line item veto
I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced he was the guy to vote for, but I'm not going to be convinced on record alone.
 
Hey Mike, thanks for the good laugh! You have really built me up into something haven't you? I am a 28 year old stay at home mom and freelance designer. My name is Erin. I'm not sure what I can provide you as "proof". Hmmm, here is my bio for one of the companies I feelance for -
http://www.fiskarscrafts.co... . I don't like to put my email address out there because I like my spam free inbox. I simply have a wireless modem that gives an IP typical of anyone with a laptop. But, it would quite fantastic if I were a Ron Paul staffer!
Now that we have that out of the way, what specifically did Ron Paul vote on that contradicted his statements? I understand that you may not agree with him on economic level but that does not equate to him having a contradictary voting record.
 
The death/estate tax bill included a minimum wage hike and the Line Item Veto is more of a balance-of-power issue rather than specifically a spending one.
I could list every anti-tax vote he's made but that's nearly EVERY VOTE that he's made. On the death/estate tax alone he voted in 2000 and 2005 to repeal it. Not reduce it, repeal it. He only voted against it when there were amendments he found completely unacceptable.
I don't care if you like Ron Paul or not and I don't care if you vote for him. You have a number of other disagreements with him and so he's probably not your ideal candidate. Me too. What I care about is that you've suggested that the most consistently anti-tax, anti-spending congressman we have and are likely to ever see again, the 1988 Libertarian nominee for President of the United States, is inconsistent on taxes. You're going to have to do a heck of a lot better than three cherry-picked votes out of a couple hundred to even remotely have a case.
Maybe if you keep looking you can find some more votes that can be construed as "pro-tax" or "pro-spending"... but I am willing to bet for every one you find I can find five in which he expressly voted for reducing taxes and spending and/or against increasing spending.
It really seems like you're looking for reasons to hate them all.
 
Ah, our posts overlapped. I still don't see a contradiction with any of his statements and the three votes you mentioned but I'll comment on one quickly (then I really need to get dinner started for my children) as it suprised me and I had to go look it up.
"voted NO on the death/estate tax bill of '06"
Are you talking about the Death/Estate and Minimum Wage Bill of 2006? If so, you left off a pretty huge part of that bill. Ron did vote yes for the Death/Estate Tax Amendment of 2006.
And just for you, I've included my email address.
 
RAW,
Will Ron Paul raise taxes less than the next guy? Likely so. But for me, that doesn't make him "the taxpayer's friend." Part of being "the taxpayer's friend" would entail being willing to judge when something was worth paying for.
Overall, Ron Paul seems - at least to me - to be too extreme on the other side of things. He's isolationist (and having had you call ME isolationist, that's saying something). He's willing to stand against just about any spending bill I've ever seen, including many that I'd say are probably justified.
Part of the problem is that as a national "anti-tax" person, much of the slack for the things he'll vote against will need to be taken up by the local government. Some of that I'll agree would be better off that way, and I'd likewise agree that the more the federal tax burden shrinks, the more possibilities there are on the local level.
However, I think he goes overboard. Someone who advocates 0% taxes, or going without something that's actually needed, isn't "the taxpayer's friend" any more than many of the crazy spenders elsewhere in congress.
 
Erin,
out of respect for your willingness to show your email address, I've removed it from your post - no worry about having it spammed.
I hope you can understand the wonder I had about how it popped up, the nature of the comments, especially since we had a spam from the Breaux campaign (louisiana) drop by to link his campaign website the other day.
 
Mike, I read your response about Ron and at first I think - this guy just doesn't agree with Ron's views and I can totally respect that. But, then you loose me with the part about him being "extreme". What does that even mean? You only like ideas if they are close to the ideas that are currently popular? Personally, I only like ideas if they are good. It doesn't matter to me how close or how far they are from societal norms. At one time, the thought of cars, sky scrapers, and desegregation seemed extreme. I just feel like it is huge cop out when I hear that reasoning. Most people I know would agree that things are VERY wrong with our current government. If that is the case, wouldn't we need an extreme change?
Nobody wants to have an extreme view. Most want to fit in with society and be viewed as normal. Unforunately, because of this, it takes way too long to make needed changes in our society. If you don't agree with Ron Paul, don't vote for him. But, please please don't dismiss him because his views are very different.
As a libertarian, I agree with Ron Paul about 95% of the time. I can sympathize because at one time I did think Libertarian views were extreme and idealistic. It wasn't until I truly educated myself on economics that I saw the light and got on board.
I also want to mention that Ron Paul's voting record is not the only reason he is called the tax payers best friend. His views on monetary policy/the gold standard also contribute. Having the private run business of elitist bankers hold the power to create our nation's money out of thin air that is backed by nothing just causes Americans to pay taxes indirectly through infation. Ron Paul is one of the few politicians who understand this. Or maybe I should say he is one of the few who is willing to put his own greed/need for power aside to want to do something about it. Here is a good read (including the links to the books provided) -
http://www.lewrockwell.com/...
this is good -
http://video.google.com/vid...
 
One more thought...
Ron is aware that one might think of him as an isolationist if they only take a brief look at his views. He actually speaks of this often and explains that he is not an isolationist at all, quite the opposite actually. Here is the last time I remember hearing him speak of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
 
Mike,
When did I call you isolationist? I could see myself calling you nativist, but I don't recall calling you isolationist. You're one of the more hawkish people I know.
 
RAW,
nativist would be entirely out of line.
Please remember that much of my objections to illegal immigration - and in particular, the various incentives and services they take up - is that those same incentives are denied to someone who spends the time and effort to legally immigrate.
Case in point: one of my co-workers (and her husband) just got her citizenship last week. She's been in the US for 10 years. He's a quadriplegic, so she works to support them both, has had to do all the paperwork, has to look after him, and STILL took the time to do it the legal way.
At no time has welfare, medicare, or anything else taken care of her, yet were she to have slipped across the border? All those would be open to her.
Excuse me if I find that a very unjust situation.
 
My point was not to call you nativist, just that I have not called you isolationist to my recollection. I don't think I've called you nativist, either (such a label would not be particularly conducive to discussion), but I sometimes say things in the heat of an argument that I later don't recall saying so I at least allow for the possibility.
Add an Observation
Comment spam is an ongoing problems that we're trying to address. Previously we required people to create accounts and log in. I am thankful to say that is no longer the case. We're giving Captcha another try and are playing around with a text-based Q&A variant of Captcha. So bear with us as we try to figure out how to best get a handle ont he problem. Please note that any comment on a post more than 30 days old will go into the moderation queue, where I will get to it when I can which could be once a week.