Love & Marriage
R. Alex Whitlock
I saw the comment on Brothers Judd somewhere, but couldn't track it down, but it came down to this:
You can't make divorce too difficult because it will trap battered spouses, but if you make marriage too difficult it will encourage commonlaw marriage and cohabitation.

These things are true.

Much moreso than gay marriage or even polygamy, I consider divorce to be the biggest threat to marriage. After all, what hurts a marriage more than frequent de-marriaging. The problem is that there are many cases where it is extremely important that a battered or abused spouse be able to get out of a marriage with their limbs and sanity in tact. On the other hand, the doorway that is open for special cases tends to get rushed with convenient passers-through.

But an idea occured to me: instead of attacking marriage or divorce, attack re-marriage. What if a divorce were easy enough to get, but that it came with a penalty: You can't remarry for five years. Or maybe ten. It seems to me that this would attack the idea that marriage is something that you can get in and out of without trapping someone (being unable to remarry would presumably not prevent a battered spouse from getting out) and without weakening the institution of marriage itself by having large numbers forego the process. Of course, divorced people would have to forego the process at least for some time, but they are generally "off the rails" anyway, from a social standpoint. By getting married and divorced, they have already gone outside the proscribed path that is expected of us.

Their penalty for de-valuing marriage is limited access to it in the future. That seems pretty fair to me.

I have at least two concerns with this:

First, there are many cases where the couple got married too young, didn't know what they were getting in to, and are being somewhat unfairly held into account for youthful indiscretions. While that holds some merit, we're reaching the point where "youthful indiscretions" continue into someone's mid-to-late twenties. Thirty, when the mother has only a limited time to produce children and will likely not see grandchildren until she well over sixty, is considered a good time to get married. Because we spend a good part of our twenties being stupid. That actions have consequences that you can't just send away is an important lesson that is missed amount younger people (particularly teenagers, but even up to people my age or a little younger). As a culture, we need to push people to grow up faster, not clear the way for them to grow up slower.

Second, If an divorced person meets and falls in love with someone that has never been married, it's the unmarried person that is paying the price for the actions of the loved one before they even met. This sort of thing already happens with debt and the like, but from a cultural standpoint it could be problematic because it throws otherwise track-bound people off the rails. Girl meets divorced man, girl can't marry divorced man, girl moves in with divorced man instead, girl breaks up with divorced man, girl sets herself up on a cycle of pseudomarriages that do not need a divorce. Of course, some of this is contingent on publically discouraging premarital cohabitation which seems to be of increasingly less concern. However, add a baby born out of wedlock to the above timeline, and the marriage becomes more important.

---

One idea that has made the rounds more recently is that of a "Covenant Marriage," in which a prospective couple agree to undergo more counselling and set up barriers against a future divorce. The common complaint I have heard about this one is that the couples that are most likely to get a Covenant Marriage are least likely to need it.

That may be true, but I think the purpose that it would serve would be to get a couple to seriously think and talk about what marriage means to them. If neither want the roadblocks to be there, I might personally ask what the point of getting married in the first place is, but it does give couples a certain lattitude if both are practical-thinking, post-modern types that have resigned themselves to "the way things are nowadays." If both want a covenant marriage, that provides a way for couples that are probably unlikely to get divorced anyway to make a statement, of sorts, to themselves and others that their marriage is distinct from Elvis-officiated ones in Vegas.

But where I think that covenant marriages would be most helpful are when one half of a partnership wants one and the other half does not. That's when the conversation about marriage becomes all the more important. It takes two to marry, but it only takes one to cause a divorce. That's why it's very important that you know as much as possible about the person that you're marrying. One of the reasons I married Camille was that I found that she and I both had very idealistic views on what a marriage should be along with very realistic ideas on how a marriage should be.

Had Covenant Marriage been a possibility for us, and had one of us wanted one and the other not, that would have been a red flag. Not necessarily indicative of future disaster or anything, but something to talk our way through. The issue of whether or not she would take my last name became a flashpoint of discussion between us because it emphasized some of the differences she and I do have when it comes to marriage and we had to work our way through them. The Covenant Marriage could easily serve a similar role. If two people have differing ideas on the nature of marriage, it needs to be worked through before the marriage actually happens.
Posted to Sex and Consequences
 
 

Observations

 
MIKE wrote:
My personal feeling is that while a gun can be destructive, marriage has the potential to be much more so, and should carry that much more of a waiting period.

But that's just me :)
8/24/2006
 
SAM wrote:
Your comment about how late in life is now considered "normal" for marriage is accurate. Following it a bit further: late marriage means that women tend to get married near the end of their period of fertility. Men, who have less of a sharp decline, are under no such pressure, so they tend to hang back -- as a result, a lot of thirtysomething women are rushed into unequal marriages with somewhat older men.
8/25/2006
 
Kavey wrote:
They'd have to track it a LOT better than they do now. And what about out of country marriages? There are marriages outside the US that are recognized by US law. How to monitor all of that?

Honestly I don't see marriage as a legal thing to be spyed on by the government. Most of the "laws" surrounding it were originally to help protect people. For instance, the house wife that diligently took care of the home and kids while the husband brought home the money. What happens when he decides to divorce? She's now out on her own with nothing? When you build a life together, it's shared. The income, the possessions, etc.

Most marriage stuff you see these days has more to do with religion than anything else. No same sex marriages, polygamy, etc. I mean what do I care if a man wants 5 wives as long as he treats them well? What do I care about same sex marriages (as long as it's not me) ;) Then again I am a heathen.

BTW, speaking of Vegas weddings, did you hear that Vegas will no longer be handing out licenses during the graveyeard shift? Saving them 200,000/year. I guess there will be fewer late night drunken marriages.
8/25/2006
 
ATruett wrote:
Some areas (don't recall where) are requiring pre-marital counseling (not by a specific group, but just of any sort) -- they report a drop in the divorce rate. Bob scoffs at all that stuff ("but we already know we have the same expectations for everything"), but I realize it's good to talk things through to make sure that what you *think* the other person believes is actually what that person believes!
8/25/2006
 
RAW wrote:
Mike,
An excellent observation.

Sam,
Good point. That also might explain why the stereotype of the marriage-hungry woman persists even though most polls show that men are more likely to want to get married. On the other hand, women that get married late are considerably less likely to get divorced, substandard mates or no.

Adrianne,
Camille and I had talked about some counselling, but we didn't have the time to do it with my working in a neighboring town and her being a medical resident. I know that a lot of churches require such things, but I didn't know any states did. I'm not sure that's a great idea, though, considering how much such counselling can cost... and I can see how that sort of thing could be considered an intrusion.

So when's the big date for you and Bob?
8/25/2006
 
RAW wrote:
Kavey,

Good point about tracking. Right now they really don't even care about polygamy as a coworker's father managed to technically have four wives because he never legally divorced any of them (lack of followthrough was apparently a problem with him). I don't think that out-of-country marriages and divorces can effectively be counted, except to the extent that they notify the US Government (presumably for tax purposes).

I consider marriage of sufficient importance that the government has an incentive to encourage and cultivate it. I don't think tracking who is and is not married, applying waiting times, and so on is excessive. YMMV.
8/25/2006
 
MIKE wrote:
RAW,

#1 - Polygamy usually only gets prosecuted when there comes another issue (jilted wife reports it and demands prosecution, money problems, underage brides/forced marriages enter the picture, etc). Very rarely do "paperwork" crimes get prosecuted without another red flag somewhere.

#2 - Kavey, as far as poly-marriage go, my religion has issues with it. Personally, the major issue I have with it is that in every society that's had it so far, it's been largely for the exploitation of women. If the law and culture allowed equally for polygamy (men with multiple wives) and polyandry (women with multiple husbands) I'd have less problem with it, because at that point it wouldn't be exploitative.

Of course, then you get into situations with a man who has 1 husband and 2 wives or something, and it gets confusing.
8/25/2006
 
kevinp wrote:
Mike,

I respectfully disagree with your comment that societies that endorse poly-marriage do so for the exploitation of women. I would argue that polygamy actually benefited women in those cultures. Primitive societies often had problems maintaining an equal ratio of men to women for numerous reasons, but primarily because men often died violent deaths at a young age. These cultures had to deal with a practical social problem - how to maximize fertility when men were dying faster than women? Also, there is the potential for social unrest when the ratio of men to women gets out of whack. To deal with these problems, many societies addressed it on the supply side by simply murdering female babies. Infanticide is universally condemned, and rightly so. Others provided for polygamous relationships. Polygamy increases fertility and creates stable families, both of which are socially desirable outcomes. To have more than one wife, a man had to be wealthy enough to support them. This created a win-win for these cultures. Obviously, the rationale for polygamy is no longer valid, although I frankly don't care what rural Mormons do (so long as they're not kidnapping teenage girls). But I don't think polygamous societies, historically speaking, have exploited women.
8/26/2006
 
MIKE wrote:
RAW,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to call you on your disagreement. While some of the aspect may be an attempt to apportion the "extra" women left in societies because of disproportionate male deaths, the problem is that it was not done in that way, but in a way that made clear that the more women a man had, the more powerful he was.

The ruling classes of ancient societies such as the Egyptians and pre-muslim Arabian societies, for instance, took the idea of the harem to great extremes. But these weren't for the common folk, just for the rich.

Your commentary on female infanticide, well intentioned, seems slightly ill-informed. The only societies with that problem as a major factor today are China, where the one-child policy leaves parents hoping for a male child to carry on their family name, and India, which runs into it due to the Hindu caste system.

Insinuations have been made that Mohammed "forbid" female infanticide when founding the Muslim religion, but the actual case is that he merely forbade *all* infanticide, not because specific female infanticide was a problem, but because general infanticide was a problem whenever farmers had new children on the way and were facing lean harvests and worried over the food supply. The "evidence" of anything more widespread than this has never been well established in a scholarly sense.

"Polygamy increases fertility and promotes stable families" - can't say as I agree necessarily, though it's possible for a poly-marriage to be as stable as any other, and just as possible for one portion of a poly-marriage to decide they want to leave.

"To have more than one wife, a man had to be wealthy enough to support them" - if that was the reasoning, fine. That's one of the few things I agree with in the Muslim faith (though its misogyny in many aspects is legendary, including the forbiddance of polyandry and other treatment of women), that it does indeed require that a man prove he can provide for multiple wives before taking on more than one. However, again, it is too easily twisted by Arab culture into a status symbol, and has been time after time; to be named a "Sheik", one is expected to own property (even a 1' by 1' plot of land somewhere) and have multiple wives.

I guess we'll have to disagree, however - even if the official laws-on-the-books don't look like exploitation, one-sided polygamy seems obviously, at least to me, way too easily twisted to the exploitation of women and I can't figure out a society that allowed it that hasn't twisted it that way.
8/26/2006
 
RAW wrote:
Mike,

I think you're referring to KevinP's comment?

I think that Kevin is right that there were benign reasons for it, but you're right that it inevitably becomes exploitive.

I do think what's being missed, though, is that polygamy isn't only bad for women but it's bad for most men, too. For every man with three wives, there are two that cannot find any. That's why in any society not at war, polygamy is not sustainable because it leads to an excess of men that have no possible mates and an aristocracy that they can take it out on.

In any case, when most people talk about whether or not "polygamy" should be legal in the West, "polyandry" is generally assumed to go with it. I would prefer that both stay illegal, though, because, while gay married couples can operate like childless heterosexual ones, it would require a massive restructuring of the laws that define marriage.
8/26/2006
 
Kavey wrote:
The marriage laws probably need resturcturing anyway. After all there are laws on the books that aren't really enforceable anyway, even if someone decided to try. For instance (and I'll put this delicately) in some states it is illegal to lay with your wife in any position other than missionary.

To say that a system of polygamy is corruptable is laughable. Our current system is abused a LOT. How many of you have knowingly met a spousal abuser, or an adulterer. I know I've met a few. I work with a few. (adulterers, not abusers that I'm aware of). I've even promised (wasn't a threat) to beat the hell out of some guy if he ever touched this girl again, to date the only known abuser I've met. Well there was a neighbor that I called the cops on a few times. Don't know why she kept coming back to that loser.

Any system can have it's problems. In most instances where polygamy promoted the exploitation of women, there were other things at play. Take the middle east. In many instances not only was there polygamy, but also women were legally treated as property. Did one cause the other? Probably not. The laws were developed over years and years surrounding how men instinctively feel about women.

And when I talk about polygamy, I'm not just talking about multiple wives. Multiple husbands too (for women naturally). Personally I could care less if a men and women wanted some sort of mass marriage all together. The legal system should be there to protect the people involved in such a union. Like I said before where a spouse who takes care of the home and kids isn't suddenly stranded with no job, no money, no home, etc. The rest of it has more to do with religious views on what constitutes an acceptable union.

Drawing a line between religion and government is pretty difficult. I'm glad I'm not the one that has to create and maintain that balance.
8/28/2006

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